Comments on: On Salvation http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/ exploring the mystery of life and mission as one and the same Fri, 11 May 2012 20:06:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Shawn http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5686 Shawn Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:09:15 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5686 How cosmic was it that I actually bumped into you at the mall... So good to see you man and meet amy. Good for my soul, I can't even begin to tell you! How cosmic was it that I actually bumped into you at the mall…
So good to see you man and meet amy. Good for my soul, I can't even begin to tell you!

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5685 jrrozko Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:27:44 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5685 good thoughts man - keep at it. I am gonna be doing some more thinking along these lines and see what I come up with. good thoughts man – keep at it. I am gonna be doing some more thinking along these lines and see what I come up with.

]]> By: Shawn http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5684 Shawn Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:35:24 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5684 not sure that im "buying" the "individual" "personal" participation. I think that it will always lead to "us" v. "them" (Saved v. Un-saved, I once belonged to a church that called them "not yet Christians, still far from God" implying that as soon as "we" bring "them" to God or bring God to them then "they" will be part of "us"... this is where I struggle, Not the JESUS model)Maybe it works out better to say (incarnationally) that all of creation is participating in Salvation (Christus Victor) some knowlingly others not. "the "having" is in the doing", in so much as a waltz can be "done" at a square dance. MAYBE!! not sure that im "buying" the "individual" "personal" participation.
I think that it will always lead to "us" v. "them" (Saved v. Un-saved, I once belonged to a church that called them "not yet Christians, still far from God" implying that as soon as "we" bring "them" to God or bring God to them then
"they" will be part of "us"… this is where I struggle, Not the JESUS model)Maybe it works out better to say (incarnationally) that all of creation is participating in Salvation (Christus Victor) some knowlingly others not. "the "having" is in the doing", in so much as a waltz can be "done" at a square dance.
MAYBE!!

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5683 jrrozko Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:29:25 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5683 Unless we receive salvation as an invitation to participate in something. It's like playing a sport or an instrument - the "having" in in the doing. Unless we receive salvation as an invitation to participate in something. It's like playing a sport or an instrument – the "having" in in the doing.

]]> By: Shawn http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5682 Shawn Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:52:03 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5682 recieve, or decide ... both words seem to deal with a transaction that leaves the recipient or the decider with a sense of ownership, or posession... we are in grave danger the moment we begin to see salvation (almost said "our salvation") as something we own or posess. recieve, or decide … both words seem to deal with a transaction that leaves the recipient or the decider with a sense of ownership, or posession… we are in grave danger the moment we begin to see salvation (almost said "our salvation") as something we own or posess.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5681 jrrozko Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:38:25 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5681 Hey Sean, dude you wrote a lot! I think the conversation changes some when we think of salvation not as something we decide about, but something we receive. True, in a sense, there is still the matter of deciding to receive a gift, but that is still different that deciding something in a consumeristic sense - which is precisely the manner in which salvation is often characterized. I am not sure we can any more decide to be saved than we can decide to be born into the family that we are. We can reject it or deny it, or we can get on board with the way things are. I guess that falls into the category of decision in some sense. But, like the prodigal son deciding to return to his father, it seems that a receiving of salvation has more to do with discovery (of our ow and needy estate) than it does with decision (to receive something so long as we perceive that it's desirable). Hey Sean, dude you wrote a lot! I think the conversation changes some when we think of salvation not as something we decide about, but something we receive. True, in a sense, there is still the matter of deciding to receive a gift, but that is still different that deciding something in a consumeristic sense – which is precisely the manner in which salvation is often characterized. I am not sure we can any more decide to be saved than we can decide to be born into the family that we are. We can reject it or deny it, or we can get on board with the way things are. I guess that falls into the category of decision in some sense. But, like the prodigal son deciding to return to his father, it seems that a receiving of salvation has more to do with discovery (of our ow and needy estate) than it does with decision (to receive something so long as we perceive that it's desirable).

]]> By: Sean http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5680 Sean Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:17:57 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5680 Decision. The problem is not with decision. The problem is with what are we (Christians) deciding. The same is true with 'believe'. There is this idea that runs throughout the church; and this couldn't be more of a generalized statement, that we simply decide to go to heaven. AKA- decide to 'accept Christ' and therefor get the ticket for salvation. The problem is not with the decision but with the understanding of what salvation is. Salvation by definition is 'saved', and as Christians we understand that as saved from death. Death according to scriptures is anything outside the realm of who God is. John 1 tells us that in him was/ is life. As living humans, no matter how far away from God we are, we still have elements of life (God) in us, but until we 'decide' to accept the free gift of grace through Jesus, we are destined for that 'life' to run out. All of that to say that the problem is not with deciding upon 'life', but understanding that 'life' is going on now. Deciding to believe in Jesus means that you believe in every aspect of Him, including his definition of what life is. ( sacrifice? total focus on the will of the father? and love for others? goal to spread life?) In essence, if we understand what we are believing or deciding, we will get it right. It will impact our lives and those around us. James 2:17 &18 " . . .faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." Belief, decision, faith all require more than just saying so, honoring God with lips. All of that to say, good, thought provoking question. I understand, so much as I can, the 'cosmic dance', so to speak. I also like the idea of approaching the concept from a different, more active angle in 'participating' in it. However, no matter what, there is a crossroads (and probably several,depending on how you look at it) where you have to make a decision, and understanding what that decision is - is key. Decision. The problem is not with decision. The problem is with what are we (Christians) deciding. The same is true with 'believe'. There is this idea that runs throughout the church; and this couldn't be more of a generalized statement, that we simply decide to go to heaven. AKA- decide to 'accept Christ' and therefor get the ticket for salvation. The problem is not with the decision but with the understanding of what salvation is. Salvation by definition is 'saved', and as Christians we understand that as saved from death. Death according to scriptures is anything outside the realm of who God is. John 1 tells us that in him was/ is life. As living humans, no matter how far away from God we are, we still have elements of life (God) in us, but until we 'decide' to accept the free gift of grace through Jesus, we are destined for that 'life' to run out. All of that to say that the problem is not with deciding upon 'life', but understanding that 'life' is going on now. Deciding to believe in Jesus means that you believe in every aspect of Him, including his definition of what life is. ( sacrifice? total focus on the will of the father? and love for others? goal to spread life?) In essence, if we understand what we are believing or deciding, we will get it right. It will impact our lives and those around us. James 2:17 &18 " . . .faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." Belief, decision, faith all require more than just saying so, honoring God with lips.

All of that to say, good, thought provoking question. I understand, so much as I can, the 'cosmic dance', so to speak. I also like the idea of approaching the concept from a different, more active angle in 'participating' in it. However, no matter what, there is a crossroads (and probably several,depending on how you look at it) where you have to make a decision, and understanding what that decision is – is key.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5676 jrrozko Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:46:08 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5676 Hey Katie, glad the post provoked some thought. Here's one key to keep in mind as you search the Bible regarding salvation. Nearly always, when you read about the need to "believe," it doesn't mean merely to know, the way you know 2+2=4, but to order your life around, like knowing you are pregnant! Hey Katie, glad the post provoked some thought. Here's one key to keep in mind as you search the Bible regarding salvation. Nearly always, when you read about the need to "believe," it doesn't mean merely to know, the way you know 2+2=4, but to order your life around, like knowing you are pregnant!

]]> By: Shawn http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5675 Shawn Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:40:32 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5675 exactly ... i think that should challenge the Christian thinker ... why do we feel this urge to compete for space among all the other truth claims... trying to fight off what isn't "us" ... and often using violence as a way to "spread" the good news exactly … i think that should challenge the Christian thinker … why do we feel this urge to compete for space among all the other truth claims… trying to fight off what isn't "us" … and often using violence as a way to "spread" the good news

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5674 jrrozko Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:39:32 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5674 Love it. Nothing Western Christianity lacks more than an ecclesial vision that does away with dichotomies, especially the grace & works one. Here's to the demise of Facebook group Christianity! Love it. Nothing Western Christianity lacks more than an ecclesial vision that does away with dichotomies, especially the grace & works one. Here's to the demise of Facebook group Christianity!

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5673 jrrozko Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:33:44 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5673 Good words. Good words.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5672 jrrozko Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:32:58 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5672 A good question for consumer Christianity if there ever was one. I think I know that guy ;) A good question for consumer Christianity if there ever was one. I think I know that guy ;)

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5671 jrrozko Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:28:58 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5671 Yup, a good question for sure. But however we define it, it relocates salvation as something which "belongs to our God" (Rev. 7:10) as opposed to something we can lay claim to. Yup, a good question for sure. But however we define it, it relocates salvation as something which "belongs to our God" (Rev. 7:10) as opposed to something we can lay claim to.

]]> By: Katie Cordell http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5670 Katie Cordell Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:18:57 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5670 JR...thanks so much for the thought provoking question. I don't have anything to contribute to the conversation, but it has definitely challenged my way of thinking and turned me to the Bible to see if some of the things/ways I have been taught are true and can even be found in the Bible. You know where I come from and how I was brought up....I'm sure you know you have rocked my world with this one. JR…thanks so much for the thought provoking question. I don't have anything to contribute to the conversation, but it has definitely challenged my way of thinking and turned me to the Bible to see if some of the things/ways I have been taught are true and can even be found in the Bible. You know where I come from and how I was brought up….I'm sure you know you have rocked my world with this one.

]]> By: Tweets that mention New blog post: #FB -- Topsy.com http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/09/1207/comment-page-1/#comment-5669 Tweets that mention New blog post: #FB -- Topsy.com Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:12:51 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1207#comment-5669 [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by jrrozko. jrrozko said: New blog post: http://bit.ly/nyLkP #FB [...] [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by jrrozko. jrrozko said: New blog post: http://bit.ly/nyLkP #FB [...]

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