Comments on: Some Struggles with John Piper http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/ exploring the mystery of life and mission as one and the same Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:58:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-6540 jrrozko Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:30:08 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-6540 Emily, there are a few angles to consider on this. Eastern orthodoxy offers a theology of divinization or theosis that you could probably get a pretty good idea of just by doing some google searches or checking out Wikipedia. This is helpful, but I would say that my understanding of this has come more through a theology of the Kingdom of God which shifts the point (and therefore locus) of salvation from getting souls into heaven to heaven breaking forth into the world. On this count, I don't think you can do better than Lesslie Newbigin or NT Wright. Hope that helps some. Emily, there are a few angles to consider on this. Eastern orthodoxy offers a theology of divinization or theosis that you could probably get a pretty good idea of just by doing some google searches or checking out Wikipedia. This is helpful, but I would say that my understanding of this has come more through a theology of the Kingdom of God which shifts the point (and therefore locus) of salvation from getting souls into heaven to heaven breaking forth into the world. On this count, I don't think you can do better than Lesslie Newbigin or NT Wright. Hope that helps some.

]]> By: Emily http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-6537 Emily Sat, 20 Mar 2010 09:00:09 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-6537 Hey, JR, I just read this post again b/c I saw it on your main page... so here's my second comment on it! I'm interested in what you said in the beginning about salvation being something we participate in and not something that we can have. Can you elaborate on that and/or point me to some sources (web or book) that might go deeper into it? Hey, JR, I just read this post again b/c I saw it on your main page… so here's my second comment on it! I'm interested in what you said in the beginning about salvation being something we participate in and not something that we can have. Can you elaborate on that and/or point me to some sources (web or book) that might go deeper into it?

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5656 jrrozko Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:35:22 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5656 As I understand egalitarianism - the basic idea is that anything a man can do a woman can do - they are exactly equal and therefore interchangeable. I disagree with this. What I am saying is that every ministry of the church is incomplete when one gender dominates. So, for example, classic egalitarians will say that women can teach congregations every Sunday just the same as a man can. I would say that this is to make the same error in the opposite direction. Instead, it seems to me that the goal is to have gifted men and women co-laboring to do everything. As I understand egalitarianism – the basic idea is that anything a man can do a woman can do – they are exactly equal and therefore interchangeable. I disagree with this. What I am saying is that every ministry of the church is incomplete when one gender dominates. So, for example, classic egalitarians will say that women can teach congregations every Sunday just the same as a man can. I would say that this is to make the same error in the opposite direction. Instead, it seems to me that the goal is to have gifted men and women co-laboring to do everything.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5655 jrrozko Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:28:08 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5655 Done. Done.

]]> By: Karen Gonzalez http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5654 Karen Gonzalez Fri, 28 Aug 2009 23:33:45 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5654 I've never been a huge fan of Piper, mostly because of the heavy emphasis on the reformed tradition and his views on women. But he has contributed some good things to the church overall, and I can't deny that despite the fact that humility isn't as high on his list of virtues as say being dogmatic and emphatic! One question that I have for you is, isn't the whole idea of being co-laborers egalitarian in nature? I've never been a huge fan of Piper, mostly because of the heavy emphasis on the reformed tradition and his views on women. But he has contributed some good things to the church overall, and I can't deny that despite the fact that humility isn't as high on his list of virtues as say being dogmatic and emphatic!

One question that I have for you is, isn't the whole idea of being co-laborers egalitarian in nature?

]]> By: Joshua Elek http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5653 Joshua Elek Fri, 28 Aug 2009 21:39:15 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5653 Well, certainly there's a lot to go into there. Let's get coffee and fix the world. You game? Well, certainly there's a lot to go into there. Let's get coffee and fix the world. You game?

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5652 jrrozko Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:04:27 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5652 Hey Emily, thanks. If I had posted this while I still lived in Memphis I imagine I'd have people at my door by now. Hey Emily, thanks. If I had posted this while I still lived in Memphis I imagine I'd have people at my door by now.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5651 jrrozko Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:01:49 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5651 Hey Olga. Josh is a long-time good friend who lives in Chicago as well. I'm just happy you took the time to read - thanks. Hey Olga. Josh is a long-time good friend who lives in Chicago as well. I'm just happy you took the time to read – thanks.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5649 jrrozko Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:59:38 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5649 My bad - I shouldn't have offered a few sentences of synopsis on how I have come to see the issue in a different light when I wasn't prepare to go deeper into the matter. That's not really what the post is about anyway. I actually do think that a participatory view of salvation changes the nature of the discussion deeply enough to make the C/A debate irrelevant as far as biblical discussions of salvation are concerned, but there is no way I could go into all that here. My bad – I shouldn't have offered a few sentences of synopsis on how I have come to see the issue in a different light when I wasn't prepare to go deeper into the matter. That's not really what the post is about anyway. I actually do think that a participatory view of salvation changes the nature of the discussion deeply enough to make the C/A debate irrelevant as far as biblical discussions of salvation are concerned, but there is no way I could go into all that here.

]]> By: Emily http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5648 Emily Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:51:13 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5648 Yeah, I agree with you on most of that. Never heard that interpretation on the woman at the well before, but it definitely does make more sense, thanks for sharing. =) Piper is great, but I am frustrated that he's become a leader that his followers rarely question, in some circles he reigns supreme and whatever he says is taken as the gold standard. I'm glad you threw those questions out there. Yeah, I agree with you on most of that. Never heard that interpretation on the woman at the well before, but it definitely does make more sense, thanks for sharing. =) Piper is great, but I am frustrated that he's become a leader that his followers rarely question, in some circles he reigns supreme and whatever he says is taken as the gold standard. I'm glad you threw those questions out there.

]]> By: Olga http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5647 Olga Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:50:29 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5647 Joshua Elek- I don't know you- but I am on the same page as you are.... Joshua Elek- I don't know you- but I am on the same page as you are….

]]> By: Joshua Elek http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5646 Joshua Elek Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:43:00 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5646 I have to say, I think the Armenian/Calvinist debate is a difficult debate, and I agree that both sides have scriptural grounds for their claims. But I'm not satisfied with the claim that sharing in salvation as opposed to harvesting salvation fixes either the religious or the philosophical problems at hand. Keep in mind, the issue of Armenianism/Calvinism is not strictly an issue of salvation. It asks questions about the nature of humanity itself. If we are born with free will, then humanity is of one sort. If we are born without free will, then humanity is of a different sort. If we have free will, then our participation in salvation has certain implications regarding the justice of God. If we do not have free will, then our inability to participate in salvation has alternate implications regarding the benevolence of God. I think that this issue is a deeply important, religious and philosophical issue. It is a very difficult question that Christianity and Philosophy have been trying to more fully understand for thousands of years. I'm not content with the conclusion that after two thousand years of discussion on this issue, we should just call the battle won because we participate in salvation rather than gaining it. I don't have an answer, and don't mean to pretend as if I do. Religiously, I am compelled to accept the antinomy that human beings have free will, and God is completely soveriegn. If I undermine either of those issues, my beliefs regarding humanity and the nature of God begin to deteriorate. Together they don't make sense, but I'm okay with that. Philosophically, I rely on Zeno of Elea's acceptance of paradoxical logic to demonstrate that something needn't be logically sound for it to be true. That's not an answer, if anything I guess it makes me a both/and guy. And I'm okay with that. I just want to say that your answer glosses over some of the more important issues in the debate, and those issues hold some very deep implications regarding what who we think we are, and what we think God is like. I have to say, I think the Armenian/Calvinist debate is a difficult debate, and I agree that both sides have scriptural grounds for their claims. But I'm not satisfied with the claim that sharing in salvation as opposed to harvesting salvation fixes either the religious or the philosophical problems at hand. Keep in mind, the issue of Armenianism/Calvinism is not strictly an issue of salvation. It asks questions about the nature of humanity itself. If we are born with free will, then humanity is of one sort. If we are born without free will, then humanity is of a different sort. If we have free will, then our participation in salvation has certain implications regarding the justice of God. If we do not have free will, then our inability to participate in salvation has alternate implications regarding the benevolence of God. I think that this issue is a deeply important, religious and philosophical issue. It is a very difficult question that Christianity and Philosophy have been trying to more fully understand for thousands of years. I'm not content with the conclusion that after two thousand years of discussion on this issue, we should just call the battle won because we participate in salvation rather than gaining it.

I don't have an answer, and don't mean to pretend as if I do. Religiously, I am compelled to accept the antinomy that human beings have free will, and God is completely soveriegn. If I undermine either of those issues, my beliefs regarding humanity and the nature of God begin to deteriorate. Together they don't make sense, but I'm okay with that. Philosophically, I rely on Zeno of Elea's acceptance of paradoxical logic to demonstrate that something needn't be logically sound for it to be true.

That's not an answer, if anything I guess it makes me a both/and guy. And I'm okay with that. I just want to say that your answer glosses over some of the more important issues in the debate, and those issues hold some very deep implications regarding what who we think we are, and what we think God is like.

]]> By: Josh G http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5645 Josh G Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:12:07 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5645 Oh, and I agree with you that the complimentarian/egalitarian question is flawed, or at least, improperly defined. I am in favor of women in leadership positions but would still would say I have a complimentarian view. I believe that God designed women and men differently, and by insisting that women are the same as men radial egalitarians loose the unique gifting that women have that we miss. By insisting that women are not fit for church leadership radical complimentarians also loose the ability to fully utilize those unique giftings that women have. Thanks for getting my brain kick-started today. Oh, and I agree with you that the complimentarian/egalitarian question is flawed, or at least, improperly defined. I am in favor of women in leadership positions but would still would say I have a complimentarian view. I believe that God designed women and men differently, and by insisting that women are the same as men radial egalitarians loose the unique gifting that women have that we miss. By insisting that women are not fit for church leadership radical complimentarians also loose the ability to fully utilize those unique giftings that women have.
Thanks for getting my brain kick-started today.

]]> By: Josh G http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/some-struggles-with-john-piper/comment-page-1/#comment-5644 Josh G Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:11:36 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1180#comment-5644 Desiring God is on my read as soon as I find time list. I've listened to Piper's podcasts and read the desiring God blog regularly for a long time. Having said that, I really appreciated this post and agree with you on pretty much everything. For a while I was pretty into the Calvinist/Arminian issue. I researched it and wanted to know all the reasons. Ultimately what I figured out is that both positions have good Biblical arguments for and against. Then I realized that both positions are within the real of historical Christian orthodoxy. That drew me to the final conclusion that not only is this a non-essential argument, it's a detrimental argument that tears the Church apart. As long as the other side has a Biblical, orthodox, position, why are we arguing about it? Ultimately I came out in the same position I started in for primarily pragmatic reasons. Desiring God is on my read as soon as I find time list. I've listened to Piper's podcasts and read the desiring God blog regularly for a long time. Having said that, I really appreciated this post and agree with you on pretty much everything.
For a while I was pretty into the Calvinist/Arminian issue. I researched it and wanted to know all the reasons. Ultimately what I figured out is that both positions have good Biblical arguments for and against. Then I realized that both positions are within the real of historical Christian orthodoxy. That drew me to the final conclusion that not only is this a non-essential argument, it's a detrimental argument that tears the Church apart. As long as the other side has a Biblical, orthodox, position, why are we arguing about it? Ultimately I came out in the same position I started in for primarily pragmatic reasons.

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