Comments on: Cultural Gravity (Part 2) http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/cultural-gravity-part-2/ exploring the mystery of life and mission as one and the same Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:31:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Josh Garrington http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/cultural-gravity-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5627 Josh Garrington Fri, 07 Aug 2009 16:38:18 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1150#comment-5627 "The Shaping of Things to Come" I've read (Jamie gave it to me). It's packed pretty full, and I read it over a span that included having a 9 month pregnant wife which turned into a newborn, so I was a bit sleep deprived and I probably missed about half of it and should read it again. I'll have to look up the other two. “The Shaping of Things to Come” I’ve read (Jamie gave it to me). It’s packed pretty full, and I read it over a span that included having a 9 month pregnant wife which turned into a newborn, so I was a bit sleep deprived and I probably missed about half of it and should read it again. I’ll have to look up the other two.

]]> By: JR Rozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/cultural-gravity-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5626 JR Rozko Fri, 07 Aug 2009 14:48:36 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1150#comment-5626 <p>Missional Church edited by Darrell Guder is a great place to start if you haven't read that.  Lesslie Newbigin is also a major authorial name in terms of missional ecclesiology.  The book that kind of "started it all" for me was "The Shaping of Things to Come" by Alan Hirsch and Mike Frost.</p> <p>Look forward to the day you can fill that void in the Wesleyan church man!</p> Missional Church edited by Darrell Guder is a great place to start if you haven’t read that.  Lesslie Newbigin is also a major authorial name in terms of missional ecclesiology.  The book that kind of “started it all” for me was “The Shaping of Things to Come” by Alan Hirsch and Mike Frost.

Look forward to the day you can fill that void in the Wesleyan church man!

]]> By: Josh Garrington http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/cultural-gravity-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5625 Josh Garrington Fri, 07 Aug 2009 14:43:37 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1150#comment-5625 Thanks for the input. I've never really thought explicitly about the missional church's interaction with the established church. Most of my reading has tended to focus on how the missional church interacts with culture. I'll have to do more research on this. Any book/blog/other material recommendations? I would tend to disagree with Driscoll on many issues as well, but I've recently started really enjoying doing more reading of people from other traditions. I find that those disagreements actually help me see more clearly where we agree. I also appreciate seeing the different perspective. It makes me think. I do enjoy Driscoll's writing style though. Oh, I also like to read other view points because, to be honest, there just aren't as many good, interesting, well spoken Wesleyan theologians/pastors doing much writing. Thanks for the input. I’ve never really thought explicitly about the missional church’s interaction with the established church. Most of my reading has tended to focus on how the missional church interacts with culture. I’ll have to do more research on this. Any book/blog/other material recommendations?

I would tend to disagree with Driscoll on many issues as well, but I’ve recently started really enjoying doing more reading of people from other traditions. I find that those disagreements actually help me see more clearly where we agree. I also appreciate seeing the different perspective. It makes me think.

I do enjoy Driscoll’s writing style though.

Oh, I also like to read other view points because, to be honest, there just aren’t as many good, interesting, well spoken Wesleyan theologians/pastors doing much writing.

]]> By: JR Rozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/cultural-gravity-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5624 JR Rozko Thu, 06 Aug 2009 18:56:55 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1150#comment-5624 Hmmm that's really funny. I would say if anything the truly missional church takes a very prophetic role. You don't have to dig very deep in my blog to learn that I have some big problems with Driscoll both in terms of his theology and ecclesiology and to define the role of a prophet simply as one who points out sin is far too reductionistic. Throughout Scripture prophets are those who call the people of God to covenant faithfulness - a broader definition of sin I suppose. This is precisely the role I see the missional church playing in the West - sounding a call to the way in which we have veered off course by way of our capitulation to modernity in general and Christendom specifically and calling us back to a more faithful way of being the body of Christ. For my part, I find that a missional ecclesiology holds Driscoll's trichotomy together pretty well, but does so by casting a more holistic vision of God's triune nature. Hmmm that’s really funny. I would say if anything the truly missional church takes a very prophetic role. You don’t have to dig very deep in my blog to learn that I have some big problems with Driscoll both in terms of his theology and ecclesiology and to define the role of a prophet simply as one who points out sin is far too reductionistic. Throughout Scripture prophets are those who call the people of God to covenant faithfulness – a broader definition of sin I suppose. This is precisely the role I see the missional church playing in the West – sounding a call to the way in which we have veered off course by way of our capitulation to modernity in general and Christendom specifically and calling us back to a more faithful way of being the body of Christ. For my part, I find that a missional ecclesiology holds Driscoll’s trichotomy together pretty well, but does so by casting a more holistic vision of God’s triune nature.

]]> By: Josh Garrington http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/cultural-gravity-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5623 Josh Garrington Thu, 06 Aug 2009 17:32:22 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1150#comment-5623 JR, This post came at a good time. I was just reading Driscoll's "Vintage Jesus" last night. He has a whole chapter that emphasises the three roles of Jesus (Prophet: to point out sin; Priest: to love and offer grace; King: to 'own' all your life - physical and non). One thing he points out is the effects when churches place emphasis on one or the other points (i.e. all King & Prophet w/ no Priest = Fundamentalism). Do you think that Missional church places too much empasis on Priest and King, somewhat neglecting Prophet? That is the impression I've gotten from my (admittedly limited) reading. I'm not pointing fingers, I think the Salvation Army tends to forget about both Prophet and King sometimes, only remembering Priest. Just curious as to how you'd respond to that. JR,

This post came at a good time. I was just reading Driscoll’s “Vintage Jesus” last night. He has a whole chapter that emphasises the three roles of Jesus (Prophet: to point out sin; Priest: to love and offer grace; King: to ‘own’ all your life – physical and non).
One thing he points out is the effects when churches place emphasis on one or the other points (i.e. all King & Prophet w/ no Priest = Fundamentalism).
Do you think that Missional church places too much empasis on Priest and King, somewhat neglecting Prophet? That is the impression I’ve gotten from my (admittedly limited) reading.
I’m not pointing fingers, I think the Salvation Army tends to forget about both Prophet and King sometimes, only remembering Priest.
Just curious as to how you’d respond to that.

]]> By: JR Rozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/cultural-gravity-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5622 JR Rozko Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:48:34 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1150#comment-5622 <p>Hey Stew.  Regarding sin, I definitely think it's a chicken and egg sort of issue.  Even if you go back to the story of the garden of Eden, sin entered the world how?  Was it by what humans did or the presence of a cunning serpent?</p> <p>Scriptural points: Gen 12:1-3, numerous places through Exodus and Deuteronomy, Isaiah 49 & 60, Jesus' entire ministry, Acts 2, etc.  These are some passages that give us snapshots of a larger biblical/theological idea that can't be fully understood from prooftexting.  It is more of a hermeneutical paradigm - a way to read Scripture given a narrative theology.  Hope that makes sense.</p> <p>"of" deleted. ;)</p> Hey Stew.  Regarding sin, I definitely think it’s a chicken and egg sort of issue.  Even if you go back to the story of the garden of Eden, sin entered the world how?  Was it by what humans did or the presence of a cunning serpent?

Scriptural points: Gen 12:1-3, numerous places through Exodus and Deuteronomy, Isaiah 49 & 60, Jesus’ entire ministry, Acts 2, etc.  These are some passages that give us snapshots of a larger biblical/theological idea that can’t be fully understood from prooftexting.  It is more of a hermeneutical paradigm – a way to read Scripture given a narrative theology.  Hope that makes sense.

“of” deleted. ;)

]]> By: Stewart http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2009/08/cultural-gravity-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5621 Stewart Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:28:30 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=1150#comment-5621 JR, In the light of a previous comments I posted on your blog, please know that I'm not being sarcastic. :)   Seriously! Push back: "Sin .... grows out of of the experiences, paradigms, and structures that make up the worlds we live in." I'm not sure I can agree with this without you explaining further. In my mind, our sinful nature has caused the experiences, paradigms, and structures that make up the world, not necessarily grown out of it. However, I could see how the cause then feeds off of the product - kinda like a perpetual machine. Maybe I'm seeing this too simply. Clarification (needed): Can you give me the examples you had in mind from scripture that indicate "...God so blessing his people for their covenant faithfulness that others take note and want to participate." I'm not arguing the point...yet. Additions (or subtractions?): Point # one, first sentance: "of". (sorry, could help myself) Love ya man!! JR,
In the light of a previous comments I posted on your blog, please know that I’m not being sarcastic. :)    Seriously!

Push back: “Sin …. grows out of of the experiences, paradigms, and structures that make up the worlds we live in.” I’m not sure I can agree with this without you explaining further. In my mind, our sinful nature has caused the experiences, paradigms, and structures that make up the world, not necessarily grown out of it. However, I could see how the cause then feeds off of the product – kinda like a perpetual machine. Maybe I’m seeing this too simply.

Clarification (needed): Can you give me the examples you had in mind from scripture that indicate “…God so blessing his people for their covenant faithfulness that others take note and want to participate.” I’m not arguing the point…yet.

Additions (or subtractions?): Point # one, first sentance: “of”. (sorry, could help myself)

Love ya man!!

]]>