Comments on: The Probem of Church Shopping

By: why church structure matters | in search of a movement

why church structure matters | in search of a movement — Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:23:15 +0000

[...] a blog post about the problem of church shopping and it playing into Christian consumerism. You can read that post here. He finished the post like this: It can be argued that Christians, at least those of the [...]

By: jrrozko

jrrozko — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 00:53:54 +0000

Yup, couldn't agree more. This is perhaps the unintended benefit of the church losing its cultural centrality. More and more, inviting someone to attend a church worship service with you will make just about as much cultural sense as inviting a straight friend to go to a gay bar with you (this is a hypothetical "you" obviously). Like it or not, increasingly, the "front door" will simply be meaningful relationships as opposed to a specific sub-cultural event like a Christian worship service. The more we try to head off this evolution of things at the pass the better in my opinion.

By: doug paul

doug paul — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:50:36 +0000

I think the question of church structure has to be brought up in this discussion.

The fact of the matter is that our culture shapes people in such a powerful way that pretty much everyone is going to evaluate whether they "visit again" or engage deeper with the community based on what they see in the worship service. More and more, as people are shaped in our consumeristic society, that's how they will respond, post-modern or not. I actually think it matters very little what we say in the service to offset this fact. "This service is just one expression of the wider community. We invite you to come into community with us and then decide if our community lives out what we say." That sounds good, but practically, that's just not how people think. They think to themselves, "based on what I just saw in this worship service and the people I'm looking at, would I want to hang out more? Did I have a good time? Did they do worship in the way that I like worship?"

For me, the real problem here is that our churches have made the Worship Service the front door to people "visiting" the community and our primary vehicle for mission. What is it that Churchill would say? Something along the lines of, "We shape our buildings and then our buildings shape us." With the church, we've built the church structure and that structure is now forming us.

If we make the worship service the front door, the first touch of our community, just expect people to evaluate it based on whether they like the worship service or not. That's how they walk into the service, shaped by culture to be a self-centered consumer, and that's what we're giving them to evaluate first. Not the texture of our lives, but the "event" that is the worship service.

We can't be surprised that people church shop! That's how the structure is built. But if we want people to engage with, experience and see the incarnated teachings of Jesus in the community and do what the writer of Hebrews says (judge a teacher/community based on how they see them living, "consider the outcome of their life"), we're going to need a structure that's built for that.

As it stands now, we're built to get exactly what we're getting.

By: From Pragmatics to Formation

From Pragmatics to Formation — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:03:43 +0000

[...] friend Sam reminded me of a quote by Lesslie Newbigin recently, …if we begin with culture we are never taken back to [...]

By: Mandy & Lee

Mandy & Lee — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:24:10 +0000

I kind of would like to see some simple posts from you sometime. Like… “Why do I refuse to wear socks and shoes in the wintertime?!”

By: Jon

Jon — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:52:01 +0000

@JR – I agree. There is an appearance of living out the gospel where we need to use discernment as you said. Many places doing good “things” for possibly the wrong reasons. I would not be one to tell who is wrong or right in that area. Being post-modern as we are do we risk “being sucked in” to a community that may be askew? When we put emotional and social energy into a community there is an investment there we often find hard to admit, “At first this group was great, but I now realize they are nuts.”
Could we sometimes compromise some truth for the sake of how awesome the community seems?
Personal story: When I was a new Christian I was a part of a community that looked really good. One day from the pastor there was something said that was fairly outlandish to the congregation. 99 of 100 people kind of just moved right along not thinking about what was said and how wrong it could be. The community was great and they did lots of good “stuff” but the proclamation was “bent”. I wonder how often things that may be flat out false teaching go unchallenged in a place like that?

Sorry if I wandered off topic.

By: JR Rozko

JR Rozko — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:43:17 +0000

Thanks Sam, hadn’t com across that quote from Newbigin, but I love it – brilliant guy.

By: Sam Andress

Sam Andress — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:35:50 +0000

Just a hearty Amen! And this post reminds of when Lesslie Newbigin said, “if we begin with culture we are never taken back to gospel, if we begin with gospel, we ourselves are transformed and enter into culture to put flesh on the gospel.”

Basically what you said, JR! Great post.

By: JR Rozko

JR Rozko — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:37:37 +0000

@Jon – I didn’t mean to draw that dichotomy, but you show me a church that is living out the gospel and I will show you one that is being taught well. I think we would be hardpressed to claim that the reverse is true. I think I am with you in what you said after that and would be the first to call the church to live out a peculiar existence in the world.

@Emily – If the local Unitarian church is actually living out the gospel of Jesus that is exactly where you should be. My guess is that they aren’t really doing that, which is why discernment is necessary. Yes, I’m with you, the over-emphasis we put on a preacher (and simultaneously one gift of the Spirit) undermines what it means to be the Body of Christ and reeks havoc on the sustainability of communities. Another reason that I find this discussion so important.

By: Emily

Emily — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:41:16 +0000

But isn’t it kinda both? I’m not gonna go join the local Unitarian church because I like the way they live-out their faith in community. I know that’s not exactly what you’re saying, but I think it’s important to make sure that the church is preaching the Gospel in a healthy way (so you don’t get trapped at Joel Osteen’s church or something) before/while you get to know the community there. But at the same time, it’s probably kinda rare to have an awesome community of people who are living-out the gospel if it’s not being faithfully taught at that church. I definitely don’t love the fact that people church-shopping are often just pastor-shopping… looking around for a pastor and worship style that clicks with them, often never bothering to get to know anyone else in the process. Then a few years later you have people who love their pastor but that’s the only reason they’re at the church, and they’re not even really involved in anything the church is doing. (that’s kinda a whole other bigger issue, though) It seems like when we ask people around here about their church and why they like it, we get an answer about what their pastor is like and why they like him. (of course we heard this a ton from people at home, too) Thankfully, the church we’ve been going to since moving here has the good pastor/great biblical teaching/community that’s living it out combo. =)

By: Jon

Jon — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:16:42 +0000

What if we want a church to preach and live out the gospel? Wacky concept.

I am not a history expert but at some point in the past the Church stopped shaping culture and began reflecting their current culture.
I like (I think it is from Tim Keller) the idea of being the alien (sojourner) and member of the culture. We are different and we should bring salt into our culture. At the same time we can use our membership in the culture to advance the kingdom. We can do things say someone from an alternate culture could never do.
Does that make any sense?

How do we find that balance though?