• Lots of People in Hell Have Perfect Doctrine

    September 26, 2008

    I was listening the other day to a message given by a teaching pastor that I respect.  He was teaching on baptism, specifically whether or not aspiring members needed to share the official doctrinal stance of the church before being accepted as members.  Rather than addressing that question directly, he decided to take a round-about approach.

    He spoke of how important it is for the church to create a

    relational culture…that is more intentionally and radically servant-like, other-oriented, thoughtful, outgoing, humble, thankful, aggressively concerned and caring, moving into the lives of others rather than moving away from them, committed to the hard work and sweet rewards of loving other people in the church.

    He drew these characteristics from Colossians 3:12-17.  And his point was essentially this; it is in this sort of context that wisdom flourishes and when wisdom flourishes we can hope to come to agreement about baptism.

    And here was my first thought.  If you have successfully created a relational culture of the sort mentioned above, who in the heck cares if you are in agreement about baptism?!

    Do you see what I mean here?  It’s like finding ways to mutually inspire love, affection, connection, commitment, and excitement in marriage and then, when you do, thinking that it would be a good idea to talk about how you define love.  Who cares how you define it if you ‘re already both experiencing it?  In fact, defining it might be the most sure-fire way to kill it as you nit-pick at nuanced differences.

    I am not in the least bit saying that there is no connection whatsoever between doctrine (what we say we believe) and praxis (how we live).  I am just saying that if you are living out a faithful Christian witness and example where God is glorified, your doctrinal stances matter very little.

    Another problem.  At another point the pastor said,

    As a member of this church, you can be wrong on election, wrong on the power of sin, wrong on the extent of atonement, wrong on the power of grace, wrong on perseverance, and wrong on the sovereignty of God… [but you can still be a member]

    Man, I chafe under this sort of mentality.  “We, as the pastors and elders, have all the important doctrinal stuff worked out, and you don’t have to agree with us to be a member here, but this is the way it is, and we will pray for you to come around.”  I can imagine nothing more inhibitory to what Chritian community is all about than this sort of mindset.  How is the church supposed to listen to the Holy Spirit and fall in love with God through Scripture together if it’s a 1-way street?

    I seriously pray for myself that I would always be more passioante about God than my limited ability to understand and articulate God.

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    Posted in: God, church, culture, doctrine, hell, love, marriage, preaching/teaching, relationships

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Recent Comments

  • Deb said...

    1

    Couldn’t agree more.  I once heard one of my favorite authors (Madeleine L’Engle) speaking and she made the comment that she didn’t think that “God ever intended for denominations.”  I think that segregation of Christians is part of the whole mindset you’re talking about – the “nit-picking” of doctrine is one of the fastest ways to ostracize others and basically do the opposite of what Christ calls us to.

    I believe God certainly loves for us to discuss and carefully think through things like baptism (to use your example) – after all, He could have made absolute statements about every last piece of doctrine to leave no room for misinterpretation if He had wanted to (e.g. “No one comes to the Father but through me”), but I think it’s sad when we rather let those things divide us as Christians instead of coming together on the important topics of salvation, love, community, service, and knowing our awesome God.

    09/26/08 12:28 PM | Comment Link

  • Ryan Conrad said...

    2

    I really liked your thoughts JR, specifically about killing something by defining it. I wrestle a bit about what you said Deb with regards to denominations. There are many things God “did not intend” and I know you didn’t say this, the author did… part of me (maybe like you JR) does wrestle with the idea of correct doctrine (Paul talks about it) and what do we do with passages about the narrow gate…a popular answer to this is just worry about yourself and loving other, and I agree…but I think there are some Churches that call themselves Christian Churches that are severely (maybe even beyond the narrow gate) believing in a false doctrine other than the way of Jesus…I’m just chatting, thoughts coming from the top of my head…thanks for the post

    09/28/08 2:14 PM | Comment Link

  • Michael said...

    3

    There is no one in hell with perfect doctrine. Those in hell have everlasting confusion. By the way Jude says for the faithful in Christ Jesus to earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints, and doctrine does matter. Have you not read what the apostle John wrote in his second epistle in verse nine Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Therefore the only perfect doctrine is the doctrine of Christ so if a man has that doctrine he is righteous.

    12/19/08 11:14 PM | Comment Link

  • JR Rozko said...

    4

    Hi Michael, thanks for taking the time to comment. I think I can appreciate where you are coming from, but I think it is a pretty misguided perspective. If we are going to proof-text, there are plenty of verses I could point to that seem to make my points as well. James 2:19 comes to mind – the idea that right belief is a characteristic of both believers as well as demons as well as Matthew 7:21 – the notion that it is those who “do” God’s will and not merely believe rightly who stand in the favor of God.

    Interesting translation of 2 John 1:9. I wonder who gets to determine what exactly the “doctrine of Christ” is since he didn’t leave us doctrine per se, but a way of life? I think the translation which reads, “continue in the teaching of Christ,” is probably a much more helpful rendering of the author’s intent there.

    I am sure we could talk past each other about Scripture all day though. Do you have any helpful thoughts on the point of the post itself? Are you saying that if a church community was able to cultivate an environment where the above description fits that it would still make a lot of sense to worry about whether or not everyone was on the same doctrinal page?

    12/20/08 3:42 PM | Comment Link

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