Comments on: Gut Thoughts on Government and Evil http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/ exploring the mystery of life and mission as one and the same Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:31:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: pauledwardsnyder http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7164 pauledwardsnyder Wed, 01 Dec 2010 09:07:49 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7164 JR, It’s reassuring to know that there are still Christians out there who study more than just the Bible. I attended The Episcopalian School of Theology at Claremont, California (known back then as Bloy House) for 5 years, but just on weekends. It became obvious pretty quickly that I was not meant for the ministry, but I stayed on for the sheer joy of exploring the minds of philosophers and theologians unavailable to me elsewhere. I still read a lot, enough to be concerned about the direction Christianity seems to have chosen as its adherents cluster around televangelists and mega churches. Ecstasy in the presence of the Lord seems to be today’s worship purpose. Drugs could serve the same purpose, but drugs are habit forming and ultimately destructive. I suspect the same applies to too much dependence on religion and too little on the God revealed to us by Jesus of Nazareth. JR,
It’s reassuring to know that there are still Christians out there who study more than just the Bible. I attended The Episcopalian School of Theology at Claremont, California (known back then as Bloy House) for 5 years, but just on weekends. It became obvious pretty quickly that I was not meant for the ministry, but I stayed on for the sheer joy of exploring the minds of philosophers and theologians unavailable to me elsewhere. I still read a lot, enough to be concerned about the direction Christianity seems to have chosen as its adherents cluster around televangelists and mega churches.
Ecstasy in the presence of the Lord seems to be today’s worship purpose. Drugs could serve the same purpose, but drugs are habit forming and ultimately destructive. I suspect the same applies to too much dependence on religion and too little on the God revealed to us by Jesus of Nazareth.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7163 jrrozko Wed, 01 Dec 2010 01:54:03 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7163 No hostility or sarcasm at all, I promise. It's just that I have been a theology student (formally and informally) for the last 13 years and Warren's book is nearly 10 years old, so I haven't considered it for some time. No hostility or sarcasm at all, I promise. It's just that I have been a theology student (formally and informally) for the last 13 years and Warren's book is nearly 10 years old, so I haven't considered it for some time.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7162 jrrozko Wed, 01 Dec 2010 01:48:06 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7162 Paul, these are good thoughts, thanks again for sharing. Could not agree more that obsession w/ pleasing God leads to unhealthy behavior and I appreciate what seems like a heartfelt desire you have for people to simply rest in being loved by God - we need way more of this. Paul, these are good thoughts, thanks again for sharing. Could not agree more that obsession w/ pleasing God leads to unhealthy behavior and I appreciate what seems like a heartfelt desire you have for people to simply rest in being loved by God – we need way more of this.

]]> By: pauledwardsnyder http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7161 pauledwardsnyder Wed, 01 Dec 2010 01:42:05 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7161 Regarding Rick’s book, I sense hostility, sarcasm perhaps. In my opinion, you as a Christian are fully justified in such a response, but sincerity is hard to find in today’s world, and I do believe Rick is sincere and, for some people, his points are indeed helpful. I am enjoying his book, though it is very far from my Christian experience. Regarding Rick’s book, I sense hostility, sarcasm perhaps. In my opinion, you as a Christian are fully justified in such a response, but sincerity is hard to find in today’s world, and I do believe Rick is sincere and, for some people, his points are indeed helpful. I am enjoying his book, though it is very far from my Christian experience.

]]> By: pauledwardsnyder http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7160 pauledwardsnyder Wed, 01 Dec 2010 01:40:24 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7160 JR, Reminding oneself constantly of God’s presence, it seems to me, removes the personal intimacy Christians feel in their relationship with God. I’m not convinced that Christians are (though they seem to be becoming) overly concerned with pleasing God, just as children are not overly concerned with pleasing their parents, though concern for their parents’ approval does enter into the choices they make. Those too obsessed with pleasing God are often apt to do horrendous things in an attempt to get into His good graces (suicide and the taking of innocent lives seem the order of today). Your point regarding prayer is a good one and for the most part, I believe, correct. I would suggest, however, that the need to remind oneself of God’s presence (formally) too often may interfere with the constant prayer we pray every second of our lives as we reach unconsciously for God’s hand and smile up at His presence. JR,
Reminding oneself constantly of God’s presence, it seems to me, removes the personal intimacy Christians feel in their relationship with God. I’m not convinced that Christians are (though they seem to be becoming) overly concerned with pleasing God, just as children are not overly concerned with pleasing their parents, though concern for their parents’ approval does enter into the choices they make. Those too obsessed with pleasing God are often apt to do horrendous things in an attempt to get into His good graces (suicide and the taking of innocent lives seem the order of today).
Your point regarding prayer is a good one and for the most part, I believe, correct. I would suggest, however, that the need to remind oneself of God’s presence (formally) too often may interfere with the constant prayer we pray every second of our lives as we reach unconsciously for God’s hand and smile up at His presence.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7158 jrrozko Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:16:03 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7158 Yeah, I doubt that trying to put a positive spin on "manipulation" is all that helpful. What you say is better. All I meant to convey is that God is both vitally concerned and actively involved in the world and in our lives. Yeah, I doubt that trying to put a positive spin on “manipulation” is all that helpful. What you say is better. All I meant to convey is that God is both vitally concerned and actively involved in the world and in our lives.

]]> By: jrrozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7157 jrrozko Tue, 30 Nov 2010 13:03:02 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7157 Paul,I wonder if the practices of Muslims are really aimed at reminding God/Allah of something as opposed to reminding themselves to be attentive to him. This is most certainly the aim of Christian prayer and I would venture to guess that Muslim prayer takes a similar view.As for Rick's book, I am well acquainted. Paul,I wonder if the practices of Muslims are really aimed at reminding God/Allah of something as opposed to reminding themselves to be attentive to him. This is most certainly the aim of Christian prayer and I would venture to guess that Muslim prayer takes a similar view.As for Rick's book, I am well acquainted.

]]> By: pauledwardsnyder http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7156 pauledwardsnyder Tue, 30 Nov 2010 02:01:12 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7156 JR, The key word here is “such” referring back to “micromanaging”. I’m not quite sure I accept your view of God as manipulative, even in a positive sense. This reveals a strong bias of mine. For me, free will means making choices and being held responsible for those choices. Being manipulated into choices, no matter how helpful that manipulation might be, would seem to violate God’s original intention (if that intention were that we have free will). This, of course, is a semantic thing. I understand your intent and agree with it, but I would be more comfortable with “God’s attempts to ‘make us aware’ that loving relationships are, in God’s eyes, better for all of us than self-serving autonomy”. I really appreciate such an immediate response to my blathering, JR. Quite frankly, I hadn’t expected a response at all. JR,
The key word here is “such” referring back to “micromanaging”. I’m not quite sure I accept your view of God as manipulative, even in a positive sense. This reveals a strong bias of mine. For me, free will means making choices and being held responsible for those choices. Being manipulated into choices, no matter how helpful that manipulation might be, would seem to violate God’s original intention (if that intention were that we have free will). This, of course, is a semantic thing. I understand your intent and agree with it, but I would be more comfortable with “God’s attempts to ‘make us aware’ that loving relationships are, in God’s eyes, better for all of us than self-serving autonomy”.
I really appreciate such an immediate response to my blathering, JR. Quite frankly, I hadn’t expected a response at all.

]]> By: pauledwardsnyder http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7155 pauledwardsnyder Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:36:37 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7155 JR, You are, of course, correct. In the sense that, for Christians, God is personal, He is obviously closer to them than merely as their creator but, as the creator, He is closer to His creation for those who have chosen to submit to Him rather than to befriend Him. For them He has their attention every moment of every day. Though God is ever present, Christians call out when they need Him or when they are especially thankful. They do not seem to feel the need to constantly remind Him that they are aware of His presence. He is family and the relationship is more informal . Muslims, on the other hand, recognize His always being present and seem to feel the need to constantly remind Him formally that they are aware He is there and that they appreciate His Greatness and His mercy. It is a different kind of intimacy, of awareness. You really should read Rick Warren’s book, JR. Though I question its portrayal of Christianity, Evangelism has pretty much dominated Christian thought over the past few decades. JR,
You are, of course, correct. In the sense that, for Christians, God is personal, He is obviously closer to them than merely as their creator but, as the creator, He is closer to His creation for those who have chosen to submit to Him rather than to befriend Him. For them He has their attention every moment of every day.
Though God is ever present, Christians call out when they need Him or when they are especially thankful. They do not seem to feel the need to constantly remind Him that they are aware of His presence. He is family and the relationship is more informal . Muslims, on the other hand, recognize His always being present and seem to feel the need to constantly remind Him formally that they are aware He is there and that they appreciate His Greatness and His mercy. It is a different kind of intimacy, of awareness.
You really should read Rick Warren’s book, JR. Though I question its portrayal of Christianity, Evangelism has pretty much dominated Christian thought over the past few decades.

]]> By: pauledwardsnyder http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7153 pauledwardsnyder Mon, 29 Nov 2010 20:45:14 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7153 I do find this chapter especially troublesome inasmuch as it flatters mankind far beyond our actual worth. In a way it actually places humankind above God suggesting that we are the reason God created the cosmos and that the cosmos revolves around us, that it exists for us, that we rather than God are the end all, that we are God’s purpose. It does, however, explain the insistence of Evangelicals on creation being no more than 10,000 years ago and as the Genesis myth portrays it. If creation began billions of years ago and if god created life soon after and that life evolved into us, then there may be more beyond us and we are not so special after all. I do find this chapter especially troublesome inasmuch as it flatters mankind far beyond our actual worth. In a way it actually places humankind above God suggesting that we are the reason God created the cosmos and that the cosmos revolves around us, that it exists for us, that we rather than God are the end all, that we are God’s purpose. It does, however, explain the insistence of Evangelicals on creation being no more than 10,000 years ago and as the Genesis myth portrays it. If creation began billions of years ago and if god created life soon after and that life evolved into us, then there may be more beyond us and we are not so special after all.

]]> By: pauledwardsnyder http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7152 pauledwardsnyder Mon, 29 Nov 2010 20:42:58 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7152 I apparently read the Bible a little differently than does Rick Warren. To me it suggests a partnership, a covenant. God becomes the object of our affection, not our love, but our affection. The Old Testament does seem to suggest He becomes the exclusive object of our affection, but the Gospels suggest otherwise inasmuch as the commandments are simplified into “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” To me that means “care about others as much as you care about yourself.” I apparently read the Bible a little differently than does Rick Warren. To me it suggests a partnership, a covenant. God becomes the object of our affection, not our love, but our affection. The Old Testament does seem to suggest He becomes the exclusive object of our affection, but the Gospels suggest otherwise inasmuch as the commandments are simplified into “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” To me that means “care about others as much as you care about yourself.”

]]> By: pauledwardsnyder http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7151 pauledwardsnyder Mon, 29 Nov 2010 20:41:39 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7151 This sort of flattery is not unusual for many Christians and Muslims. We flatter God by telling Him how great He is when He obviously does not need to hear this. He is perfectly aware of who and what He is. Such statements from us come very close to being ridicule. It is how we instinctively react when threatened by the school bully. We flatter him, agree with everything he says, bow before him, take our lumps without complaint, and move on. I find it hard to see God as the school bully, and I find it hard to understand why Rick Warren would treat us as if we were some kind of threat. I can only conclude that he is attempting to domesticate the reader, to mesmerize him into submission. I’m pretty sure that is not what God wants. This sort of flattery is not unusual for many Christians and Muslims. We flatter God by telling Him how great He is when He obviously does not need to hear this. He is perfectly aware of who and what He is. Such statements from us come very close to being ridicule. It is how we instinctively react when threatened by the school bully. We flatter him, agree with everything he says, bow before him, take our lumps without complaint, and move on. I find it hard to see God as the school bully, and I find it hard to understand why Rick Warren would treat us as if we were some kind of threat. I can only conclude that he is attempting to domesticate the reader, to mesmerize him into submission. I’m pretty sure that is not what God wants.

]]> By: pauledwardsnyder http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-7150 pauledwardsnyder Mon, 29 Nov 2010 20:35:18 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-7150 JR, I appreciate your comment on objectivity and have my own very subjective opinions concerning Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Life. I have written a response to his Chapter 2 which follows: A critique of Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life Chapter 2 (The following is my opinion and as such subject to your evaluation. If you disagree, I look forward to discussing my conclusions with you.) This chapter is a remarkably sensitive and perceptive description of Islam. It is powerful, it is overwhelming, and it makes it obvious why so many are so drawn into the Islamic community, but it is not Christian. Islam is a rational religion while Christianity is more mythological (communicated through stories). For Christians God is more distant than in Islam. He created the cosmos to operate pretty much on its own, interfering only occasionally to fine tune it. Christians see God as completely outside His creation coming into it only occasionally (Jesus of Nazareth, for Christians, is an example of this). JR,
I appreciate your comment on objectivity and have my own very subjective opinions concerning Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Life. I have written a response to his Chapter 2 which follows:
A critique of Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life Chapter 2
(The following is my opinion and as such subject to your evaluation. If you disagree, I look forward to discussing my conclusions with you.)
This chapter is a remarkably sensitive and perceptive description of Islam. It is powerful, it is overwhelming, and it makes it obvious why so many are so drawn into the Islamic community, but it is not Christian. Islam is a rational religion while Christianity is more mythological (communicated through stories). For Christians God is more distant than in Islam. He created the cosmos to operate pretty much on its own, interfering only occasionally to fine tune it. Christians see God as completely outside His creation coming into it only occasionally (Jesus of Nazareth, for Christians, is an example of this).

]]> By: JR Rozko http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-5083 JR Rozko Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:52:38 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-5083 Objectivity is a myth, so I am not sure I could feign it.  If I implied that I was speaking objectively, that was not my intention.  I have added a disclaimer to my comment on Palin above.  So, if anyone wants to comment on the actual content of this post, I am happy for discussion to continue, but as far as the rabbit trails that seem to be emerging in the discussion, I am just not that interested.  To be honest, I am not even sure how interested in the content of the post even - probably much better discussions to be having. Objectivity is a myth, so I am not sure I could feign it.  If I implied that I was speaking objectively, that was not my intention. 

I have added a disclaimer to my comment on Palin above.  So, if anyone wants to comment on the actual content of this post, I am happy for discussion to continue, but as far as the rabbit trails that seem to be emerging in the discussion, I am just not that interested.  To be honest, I am not even sure how interested in the content of the post even – probably much better discussions to be having.

]]> By: ordinarycitizen http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2008/09/gut-thoughts-on-government-and-evil/comment-page-1/#comment-5082 ordinarycitizen Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:30:32 +0000 http://lifeasmission.com/blog/?p=685#comment-5082 ordinaryradical-i would agree with you in almost every case....except when the blogger is a openly professing follower of Christ. Then I believe we should "DO JUSTLY, love mercy and walk humbly with our God." I called him out because he seems to be feigning objectivity yet all his posts regarding the candidates indicates anything but. BTW, I think ALL the media outlets could use some balance/less attack; honest and truthful wouldn't hurt, either. Wildflower-please don't feel as if you caused a disturbance.....you didn't disturb me at all. I admire and appreciate your honesty; there is alot to like and dislike about both parties in this election, in my opinion. And I believe that unveiled, open discussions without hidden agendas are healthy and vital. I appreciate that about your posts and am more that willing to discuss the issues with anyone, but without pretense. ordinaryradical-i would agree with you in almost every case….except when the blogger is a openly professing follower of Christ. Then I believe we should “DO JUSTLY, love mercy and walk humbly with our God.” I called him out because he seems to be feigning objectivity yet all his posts regarding the candidates indicates anything but. BTW, I think ALL the media outlets could use some balance/less attack; honest and truthful wouldn’t hurt, either.
Wildflower-please don’t feel as if you caused a disturbance…..you didn’t disturb me at all. I admire and appreciate your honesty; there is alot to like and dislike about both parties in this election, in my opinion. And I believe that unveiled, open discussions without hidden agendas are healthy and vital. I appreciate that about your posts and am more that willing to discuss the issues with anyone, but without pretense.

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