• Gut Thoughts on Government and Evil

    September 2, 2008

    I have been positively stressing over how to construct my thoughts on the very different ways in which McCain and Obama addressed Rick Warren’s question on evil.  If you don’t know what I am talking about, check here.

    Rather than attempting any sort of biblical/theological argument or position, I will simply speak plainly and try to articulate the way I felt as I listened to the 2 responses.  Perhaps the biblical/theological defense will come later if necessary.

    Obama answered first and I thought, “Wow, I am not sure I am even imagine someone giving a better answer.”  He spoke to the diversity of ways in which we see evil in the world, he offered an answer that wasn’t on Warren’s contrived list (confrontation), acknowledged that final task of erasing evil from the world was God’s task, and emphasized the need to approach confronting evil from a posture of humility.

    McCain answered later with one simple phrase, “Defeat it.”  My gut response to this was, “Are you kidding me?  How incredibly arrogant, presumptuous, and narrow-minded.”  In typical “We’re the United States and therefore what we say goes” sort of fashion, McCain didn’t even feel the need to qualify his answer.

    To be clear, I am saying that I think Obama gave the better, and not necessarily Christian, or right answer.  What really frightens/saddens me is that so may who profess to follow Jesus think that McCain did.  I am not seeking to comment here on the whole range of political stances that each candidate takes, but let me be honest, how these candidates answered this question instantly became a big deal to me and I have no reservation in saying that if this was all it came down to (and surely it’s not), I am much, much more comfortable as a citizen of the United States following a Commander-in-Chief who both acknowledges the limitations and pervue of the government and is willing to approach issues with humility.

    Posted in: evil, politics

Recent Comments

  • Trends and Fashion » Gut Thoughts on Government and Evil said...

    1

    [...] Some Rights Reserved added an interesting post today on Gut Thoughts on Government and EvilHere’s a small reading [...]

    09/2/08 8:54 PM | Comment Link

  • wildflower said...

    2

    Hey brotha! don’t stress! ;)  … some find debating down right fun and I think it is good to question what goes on politically, so I appreciate you. In my opinion, a government or even a God fearing people group will never defeat evil in ALL the world- we can not because we have no control over anything but that which we are given… for most of us it is: one spirit, one body, and one mind to govern, and we’re called to ”battle” evil in that dominion first and foremost as a priority … knowing that we will never fully defeat it even there- and so GRACE He gave, and so GRACE He died, and so GRACE He rose again, praise JESUS for His grace! Amen! Smile with me people!… Personally, I can not separate evil all by itself in one topic without the grace factor… because I see a picture of this is drawn for us in Romans at the same spot evil is addressed. I so wish there had been a follow up question on grace…. but thats just me. Like, “Does grace exist, what does that look like, and do you plan to use it?” I wonder what would have been the answers. hmmm.

    09/2/08 10:14 PM | Comment Link

  • c. wess daniels said...

    3

    Good thoughts JR. I agree, I appreciate the understood limitations in our own abilities that Obama was spelling out. I think we as a country have a hard time believing we are limited.

    09/2/08 10:21 PM | Comment Link

  • wildflower said...

    4

    Have you listened to any of the convention speeches? I have to admit I see things in both candidates that I like and dislike.  I really liked Sarah Palin though- and did not feel any thing but respect for the woman. I am truly unsure about my final decision, and deeply concerned about both candidates stances on issues that I care very much about, so I thought it would be good to write these things out and do some research, gather some data, and pray before I vote. I don’t know how else to aproach the situation, and part of me wants to just not vote and ignore the news, conversations at work, etc. but then I don’t think that would be responsible of me. So I will vote. I hope the nation votes and prays God’s grace on who ever makes the cut because they will need it in these times. I also believe it is important to speak about our current and potential future leaders with respect. I am grieved at the loss of respect I’ve seen in my own life, and hope to continue to change that tide by speaking in ways that reflect that decision in my heart. 

    09/4/08 7:17 AM | Comment Link

  • wildflower said...

    5

    Yeah, I agree that I don't like the viciousness of politics on either side. Unfortunately, it always gets that way the closer election day draws near. One thing that could help is to look at what each candidate has done in his or her office in the past… what positive and negative choices have they made on a smaller level for this nation? What are their true standards on issues tht effect our nation's children, our poor, views on abortion, marriage, war, etc.. That's kind of what I'm researching (and with caution on where I am getting the data.) I would like to hear from more of my fellow believers on their reasons for supporting Obama or McCain.

    09/4/08 7:48 AM | Comment Link

  • c. wess daniels said...

    6

    I’ve watched all the speeches. The problem is they’re just speeches, not something you can really mess up. Palin did a nice job delivering last night, but it was written for her by the McCain crew. However, I wasn’t impressed with the personal slams and her appealing to fear as a rhetorical device. McCain’s crew seems to be getting more and more vicious, not something all that attractive to me.

    09/4/08 10:11 AM | Comment Link

  • JR Rozko said...

    7

    This is bothersome.
    http://tinyurl.com/5kwetq

    Disclaimer: I don’t mean to imply in the least that this is the only story related to a candidate or party in this election that is bothersome to me, it just happens to be one that was recently brought to my attention and caught me off guard.

    09/4/08 1:01 PM | Comment Link

  • ordinarycitizen said...

    8

    JR, there are many things that are bothersome on both sides of this election…..are you gonna start including all the links or just those you determine are relevant?

    09/5/08 12:20 AM | Comment Link

  • JR Rozko said...

    9

    @ordinarycitizen – No desire on my part to spend my time chronicling all the bothersome tidbits of parties or candidates.  There are quite enough folks doing this already.  I mention this one only because it came to my attention directly and because a commenter above mentioned Sarah Palin specifically.

    09/5/08 6:46 AM | Comment Link

  • ordinarycitizen said...

    10

    my point exactly……someone said they LIKED Sarah Palin and you linked a post from an attack blog. Maybe I should bring up Obama’s views and voting record on abortion, his view of Bill Ayers as “mainstream” and his citing Rev. Wright as a “spiritual mentor” so you can comment on those. Just trying to maintain some balance here.

    09/5/08 7:59 AM | Comment Link

  • JR Rozko said...

    11

    Sigh. An “attack blog,” really? This is the sort of inflammatory rhetoric that really doesn’t help conversation much.  Neither the author of that blog nor I meant to attack, merely to inform.  I feel pretty well informed on Obama, his position, and his track record.  I can’t say the same for Palin – and I would venture to guess that this is true for most folks.

    You are of course free to mention anything you like in the comments.  I will respond if I am able and feel it is appropriate.  Or, even better, you could start your own blog so I can comment anonymously thereby further guaranteeing that the conversation never gets truly relational (and therefore helpful) ;)

    09/5/08 10:03 AM | Comment Link

  • ordinarycitizen said...

    12

    Sigh. didn’t mean to put you on the defensive…..I was just pointing out that for a person who claims to be “positively stressing” about forming his views you seem to be “informing” alot of people with just one side of the debate. Wouldn’t hurt to include some criticism of all the candidates, now would it?

    09/5/08 10:59 AM | Comment Link

  • wildflower said...

    13

    Hey, didn’t mean to cause a disturbance… I appreciate being informed of facts concerning either and all parties. I personally choose to remain anonymous cause I like this blog and discussing it’s contents, so I’m here for the topic because thats the limit of my freedom. It’s a little something I look forward to every day… I read people’s blogs. (about 15 or so a day and this one’s my favorite) I comment when interested, and I tend to bring questions, but never to cause conflict between people. Can we get back on the subject? For example, are there any other pivotal questions/answers given to/by the candidates that is worth discussion… or maybe even a vote!?? ;-)

    09/5/08 11:24 AM | Comment Link

  • ordinaryradical said...

    14

    I’m not really sure why one would feel the necessity to be balanced on a personal blog. Everyone knows these are JR’s views, he’s entitled to write whatever view he feels worthy of mentioning. He’s not fooling us into thinking he’s being “objective.” This isn’t a national media outlet (at least I’m pretty sure it isn’t – how’s your traffic?) and for that matter even our most popular national media outlet could use a little balancing and less attack. I don’t try and write rival opinions in my personal journal when I reflect on issues, and I don’t think one needs to be bound to that on a personal weblog either.

    09/5/08 11:27 AM | Comment Link

  • ordinarycitizen said...

    15

    ordinaryradical-i would agree with you in almost every case….except when the blogger is a openly professing follower of Christ. Then I believe we should “DO JUSTLY, love mercy and walk humbly with our God.” I called him out because he seems to be feigning objectivity yet all his posts regarding the candidates indicates anything but. BTW, I think ALL the media outlets could use some balance/less attack; honest and truthful wouldn’t hurt, either.
    Wildflower-please don’t feel as if you caused a disturbance…..you didn’t disturb me at all. I admire and appreciate your honesty; there is alot to like and dislike about both parties in this election, in my opinion. And I believe that unveiled, open discussions without hidden agendas are healthy and vital. I appreciate that about your posts and am more that willing to discuss the issues with anyone, but without pretense.

    09/5/08 12:30 PM | Comment Link

  • JR Rozko said...

    16

    Objectivity is a myth, so I am not sure I could feign it.  If I implied that I was speaking objectively, that was not my intention. 

    I have added a disclaimer to my comment on Palin above.  So, if anyone wants to comment on the actual content of this post, I am happy for discussion to continue, but as far as the rabbit trails that seem to be emerging in the discussion, I am just not that interested.  To be honest, I am not even sure how interested in the content of the post even – probably much better discussions to be having.

    09/5/08 12:52 PM | Comment Link

  • pauledwardsnyder said...

    17

    JR,
    I appreciate your comment on objectivity and have my own very subjective opinions concerning Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Life. I have written a response to his Chapter 2 which follows:
    A critique of Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life Chapter 2
    (The following is my opinion and as such subject to your evaluation. If you disagree, I look forward to discussing my conclusions with you.)
    This chapter is a remarkably sensitive and perceptive description of Islam. It is powerful, it is overwhelming, and it makes it obvious why so many are so drawn into the Islamic community, but it is not Christian. Islam is a rational religion while Christianity is more mythological (communicated through stories). For Christians God is more distant than in Islam. He created the cosmos to operate pretty much on its own, interfering only occasionally to fine tune it. Christians see God as completely outside His creation coming into it only occasionally (Jesus of Nazareth, for Christians, is an example of this).

    11/29/10 2:35 PM | Comment Link

  • pauledwardsnyder said...

    18

    This sort of flattery is not unusual for many Christians and Muslims. We flatter God by telling Him how great He is when He obviously does not need to hear this. He is perfectly aware of who and what He is. Such statements from us come very close to being ridicule. It is how we instinctively react when threatened by the school bully. We flatter him, agree with everything he says, bow before him, take our lumps without complaint, and move on. I find it hard to see God as the school bully, and I find it hard to understand why Rick Warren would treat us as if we were some kind of threat. I can only conclude that he is attempting to domesticate the reader, to mesmerize him into submission. I’m pretty sure that is not what God wants.

    11/29/10 2:41 PM | Comment Link

  • pauledwardsnyder said...

    19

    I apparently read the Bible a little differently than does Rick Warren. To me it suggests a partnership, a covenant. God becomes the object of our affection, not our love, but our affection. The Old Testament does seem to suggest He becomes the exclusive object of our affection, but the Gospels suggest otherwise inasmuch as the commandments are simplified into “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” To me that means “care about others as much as you care about yourself.”

    11/29/10 2:42 PM | Comment Link

  • pauledwardsnyder said...

    20

    I do find this chapter especially troublesome inasmuch as it flatters mankind far beyond our actual worth. In a way it actually places humankind above God suggesting that we are the reason God created the cosmos and that the cosmos revolves around us, that it exists for us, that we rather than God are the end all, that we are God’s purpose. It does, however, explain the insistence of Evangelicals on creation being no more than 10,000 years ago and as the Genesis myth portrays it. If creation began billions of years ago and if god created life soon after and that life evolved into us, then there may be more beyond us and we are not so special after all.

    11/29/10 2:45 PM | Comment Link

  • pauledwardsnyder said...

    21

    JR,
    You are, of course, correct. In the sense that, for Christians, God is personal, He is obviously closer to them than merely as their creator but, as the creator, He is closer to His creation for those who have chosen to submit to Him rather than to befriend Him. For them He has their attention every moment of every day.
    Though God is ever present, Christians call out when they need Him or when they are especially thankful. They do not seem to feel the need to constantly remind Him that they are aware of His presence. He is family and the relationship is more informal . Muslims, on the other hand, recognize His always being present and seem to feel the need to constantly remind Him formally that they are aware He is there and that they appreciate His Greatness and His mercy. It is a different kind of intimacy, of awareness.
    You really should read Rick Warren’s book, JR. Though I question its portrayal of Christianity, Evangelism has pretty much dominated Christian thought over the past few decades.

    11/29/10 7:36 PM | Comment Link

  • pauledwardsnyder said...

    22

    JR,
    The key word here is “such” referring back to “micromanaging”. I’m not quite sure I accept your view of God as manipulative, even in a positive sense. This reveals a strong bias of mine. For me, free will means making choices and being held responsible for those choices. Being manipulated into choices, no matter how helpful that manipulation might be, would seem to violate God’s original intention (if that intention were that we have free will). This, of course, is a semantic thing. I understand your intent and agree with it, but I would be more comfortable with “God’s attempts to ‘make us aware’ that loving relationships are, in God’s eyes, better for all of us than self-serving autonomy”.
    I really appreciate such an immediate response to my blathering, JR. Quite frankly, I hadn’t expected a response at all.

    11/29/10 8:01 PM | Comment Link

  • jrrozko said...

    23

    Paul,I wonder if the practices of Muslims are really aimed at reminding God/Allah of something as opposed to reminding themselves to be attentive to him. This is most certainly the aim of Christian prayer and I would venture to guess that Muslim prayer takes a similar view.As for Rick's book, I am well acquainted.

    11/30/10 7:03 AM | Comment Link

  • jrrozko said...

    24

    Yeah, I doubt that trying to put a positive spin on “manipulation” is all that helpful. What you say is better. All I meant to convey is that God is both vitally concerned and actively involved in the world and in our lives.

    11/30/10 7:16 AM | Comment Link

  • pauledwardsnyder said...

    25

    JR,
    Reminding oneself constantly of God’s presence, it seems to me, removes the personal intimacy Christians feel in their relationship with God. I’m not convinced that Christians are (though they seem to be becoming) overly concerned with pleasing God, just as children are not overly concerned with pleasing their parents, though concern for their parents’ approval does enter into the choices they make. Those too obsessed with pleasing God are often apt to do horrendous things in an attempt to get into His good graces (suicide and the taking of innocent lives seem the order of today).
    Your point regarding prayer is a good one and for the most part, I believe, correct. I would suggest, however, that the need to remind oneself of God’s presence (formally) too often may interfere with the constant prayer we pray every second of our lives as we reach unconsciously for God’s hand and smile up at His presence.

    11/30/10 7:40 PM | Comment Link

  • pauledwardsnyder said...

    26

    Regarding Rick’s book, I sense hostility, sarcasm perhaps. In my opinion, you as a Christian are fully justified in such a response, but sincerity is hard to find in today’s world, and I do believe Rick is sincere and, for some people, his points are indeed helpful. I am enjoying his book, though it is very far from my Christian experience.

    11/30/10 7:42 PM | Comment Link

  • jrrozko said...

    27

    Paul, these are good thoughts, thanks again for sharing. Could not agree more that obsession w/ pleasing God leads to unhealthy behavior and I appreciate what seems like a heartfelt desire you have for people to simply rest in being loved by God – we need way more of this.

    11/30/10 7:48 PM | Comment Link

  • jrrozko said...

    28

    No hostility or sarcasm at all, I promise. It's just that I have been a theology student (formally and informally) for the last 13 years and Warren's book is nearly 10 years old, so I haven't considered it for some time.

    11/30/10 7:54 PM | Comment Link

  • pauledwardsnyder said...

    29

    JR,
    It’s reassuring to know that there are still Christians out there who study more than just the Bible. I attended The Episcopalian School of Theology at Claremont, California (known back then as Bloy House) for 5 years, but just on weekends. It became obvious pretty quickly that I was not meant for the ministry, but I stayed on for the sheer joy of exploring the minds of philosophers and theologians unavailable to me elsewhere. I still read a lot, enough to be concerned about the direction Christianity seems to have chosen as its adherents cluster around televangelists and mega churches.
    Ecstasy in the presence of the Lord seems to be today’s worship purpose. Drugs could serve the same purpose, but drugs are habit forming and ultimately destructive. I suspect the same applies to too much dependence on religion and too little on the God revealed to us by Jesus of Nazareth.

    12/1/10 3:07 AM | Comment Link

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