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	<title>Comments on: No, No, Please God, No</title>
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	<link>http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2007/09/no-no-please-god-no/</link>
	<description>exploring the mystery of life and mission as one and the same</description>
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		<title>By: JR Rozko</title>
		<link>http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2007/09/no-no-please-god-no/comment-page-1/#comment-4690</link>
		<dc:creator>JR Rozko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeasmission.com/blog/archives/421#comment-4690</guid>
		<description>&quot;Secular eschatological hope.&quot;

A+</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Secular eschatological hope.&#8221;</p>
<p>A+</p>
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		<title>By: jason</title>
		<link>http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2007/09/no-no-please-god-no/comment-page-1/#comment-4686</link>
		<dc:creator>jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeasmission.com/blog/archives/421#comment-4686</guid>
		<description>jr - i don&#039;t comment here for fear i&#039;ll be graded. but...

i appreciate reading your theological qualms; your point about becoming dependent on one another especially resonates with me. this is a feature of christian community that is totally lost on us. as i see it, it unlocks the door for #&#039;s 2 &amp; 3, which could explain why we struggle with them, especially #2. 

the rub is that the entire purpose of our economic culture is exactly the opposite: individual autonomy. one could call it a secular eschatological hope...to be completely and truly independent (or, the american dream). i know of entire households that strive to achieve complete individual economic autonomy for every member of the family - everyone has their own separate income and pays their own separate bills, and refuses to help the one who sometimes can&#039;t make it. 

when churches literally capitalize on this secular eschatological hope, we make the opposite of disciples.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jr &#8211; i don&#8217;t comment here for fear i&#8217;ll be graded. but&#8230;</p>
<p>i appreciate reading your theological qualms; your point about becoming dependent on one another especially resonates with me. this is a feature of christian community that is totally lost on us. as i see it, it unlocks the door for #&#8217;s 2 &amp; 3, which could explain why we struggle with them, especially #2. </p>
<p>the rub is that the entire purpose of our economic culture is exactly the opposite: individual autonomy. one could call it a secular eschatological hope&#8230;to be completely and truly independent (or, the american dream). i know of entire households that strive to achieve complete individual economic autonomy for every member of the family &#8211; everyone has their own separate income and pays their own separate bills, and refuses to help the one who sometimes can&#8217;t make it. </p>
<p>when churches literally capitalize on this secular eschatological hope, we make the opposite of disciples.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Rozko</title>
		<link>http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2007/09/no-no-please-god-no/comment-page-1/#comment-4684</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Rozko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeasmission.com/blog/archives/421#comment-4684</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s insane. I appreciate the article and the comments. Sometimes it&#039;s difficult to change our attitudes with innovation. People generally don&#039;t accept change rapidly and once something becomes common we often don&#039;t think about how dramatic the change really is. 

On a slight side note. The automotive industry has always had to limit their level of design because the general public doesn&#039;t react well to highly designed and innovative creations. 

It&#039;s discouraging that this honestly has such a drastic difference in the offerings. I think in this day of age you either move with current (which is never fun) or develop your own system that is more contemporary but follows the traditions in a biblical sense. 

Challenges like these should be an inspiration for thought. Good luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s insane. I appreciate the article and the comments. Sometimes it&#8217;s difficult to change our attitudes with innovation. People generally don&#8217;t accept change rapidly and once something becomes common we often don&#8217;t think about how dramatic the change really is. </p>
<p>On a slight side note. The automotive industry has always had to limit their level of design because the general public doesn&#8217;t react well to highly designed and innovative creations. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s discouraging that this honestly has such a drastic difference in the offerings. I think in this day of age you either move with current (which is never fun) or develop your own system that is more contemporary but follows the traditions in a biblical sense. </p>
<p>Challenges like these should be an inspiration for thought. Good luck.</p>
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		<title>By: JR Rozko</title>
		<link>http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2007/09/no-no-please-god-no/comment-page-1/#comment-4683</link>
		<dc:creator>JR Rozko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 02:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeasmission.com/blog/archives/421#comment-4683</guid>
		<description>Though I would agree with Amber, my qualms with this phenomenon has more of a theological bent to it.

Tithing was a practice instituted by God as a means by which...

1. The people of God became dependent on one another
2. The disparity between the poor and rich was alleviated
3. And those who served as priests (ie. full-time ministers) were provided for

The very fabric of the practice has to do with what it means to be a contrast society - the people of God whose identity hinges on their existence as those who live for the sake of others.

This individualistic approach to the transfer of funds misses that point almost entirely as it relegates the act of giving to...

1. Mere financial giving 
2. The convenience of the individual
3. An impersonal act of obligation

It is one more example of how badly we have lost what it means to be a people who exist for the sake of the world and have become utterly consumed with keeping the machine running by any and all means necessary.  

In terms of tithing, the greatest need in our churches is not to make it easier or more convenient, but to recover its truly sacrificial, public, and communal intent.

I have written on this more extensively here...
http://www.box.net/encoded/2535937/72230803/efda0e9db66ca785a39f41554eda249a</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though I would agree with Amber, my qualms with this phenomenon has more of a theological bent to it.</p>
<p>Tithing was a practice instituted by God as a means by which&#8230;</p>
<p>1. The people of God became dependent on one another<br />
2. The disparity between the poor and rich was alleviated<br />
3. And those who served as priests (ie. full-time ministers) were provided for</p>
<p>The very fabric of the practice has to do with what it means to be a contrast society &#8211; the people of God whose identity hinges on their existence as those who live for the sake of others.</p>
<p>This individualistic approach to the transfer of funds misses that point almost entirely as it relegates the act of giving to&#8230;</p>
<p>1. Mere financial giving<br />
2. The convenience of the individual<br />
3. An impersonal act of obligation</p>
<p>It is one more example of how badly we have lost what it means to be a people who exist for the sake of the world and have become utterly consumed with keeping the machine running by any and all means necessary.  </p>
<p>In terms of tithing, the greatest need in our churches is not to make it easier or more convenient, but to recover its truly sacrificial, public, and communal intent.</p>
<p>I have written on this more extensively here&#8230;<br />
<a href="http://www.box.net/encoded/2535937/72230803/efda0e9db66ca785a39f41554eda249a" rel="nofollow">http://www.box.net/encoded/2535937/72230803/efda0e9db66ca785a39f41554eda249a</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Amber</title>
		<link>http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2007/09/no-no-please-god-no/comment-page-1/#comment-4682</link>
		<dc:creator>Amber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 00:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeasmission.com/blog/archives/421#comment-4682</guid>
		<description>Nick.. my dissatisfaction with this sort of thing is looking at it from the angle of, someone is making money off people&#039;s tithes and offerings.  Every Credit Card or Debit Card transaction comes with a price tag.  So far I know of only one organization who doesn&#039;t have to pay it and that&#039;s KIVA.  As far as I know, unless there&#039;s some NPO loophole that I don&#039;t know about (because I know alot about the retail side of things) the church is paying between 3 and 5% of each transaction to whoever for processing the cards.  That&#039;s my main beef with it to be honest.

Otherwise, it&#039;s the principle of the thing.  C&#039;mon people, you don&#039;t forget to write your rent check and if you can&#039;t remember to bring it to church with you, mail it.  Stamps aren&#039;t that expensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick.. my dissatisfaction with this sort of thing is looking at it from the angle of, someone is making money off people&#8217;s tithes and offerings.  Every Credit Card or Debit Card transaction comes with a price tag.  So far I know of only one organization who doesn&#8217;t have to pay it and that&#8217;s KIVA.  As far as I know, unless there&#8217;s some NPO loophole that I don&#8217;t know about (because I know alot about the retail side of things) the church is paying between 3 and 5% of each transaction to whoever for processing the cards.  That&#8217;s my main beef with it to be honest.</p>
<p>Otherwise, it&#8217;s the principle of the thing.  C&#8217;mon people, you don&#8217;t forget to write your rent check and if you can&#8217;t remember to bring it to church with you, mail it.  Stamps aren&#8217;t that expensive.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick G</title>
		<link>http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2007/09/no-no-please-god-no/comment-page-1/#comment-4681</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeasmission.com/blog/archives/421#comment-4681</guid>
		<description>Maybe I am ignorant, but I am not sure what the disatisfaction is here with this type of thing. Is it the comments? the idea? I am almost scared to ask, but could someone clarify?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I am ignorant, but I am not sure what the disatisfaction is here with this type of thing. Is it the comments? the idea? I am almost scared to ask, but could someone clarify?</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Andress</title>
		<link>http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2007/09/no-no-please-god-no/comment-page-1/#comment-4680</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Andress</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeasmission.com/blog/archives/421#comment-4680</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to refrain from comment.  Thanks JR for raising my blood pressure a little this morning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to refrain from comment.  Thanks JR for raising my blood pressure a little this morning.</p>
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		<title>By: Amber</title>
		<link>http://lifeasmission.com/blog/2007/09/no-no-please-god-no/comment-page-1/#comment-4679</link>
		<dc:creator>Amber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lifeasmission.com/blog/archives/421#comment-4679</guid>
		<description>Yeah I was very strongly against online giving when the subject was broached at my church.  They went ahead with it but I don&#039;t know who actually uses it.  Fortunately, we don&#039;t have a permanent location so something like that hopefully won&#039;t show up.  I definitely have issue with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah I was very strongly against online giving when the subject was broached at my church.  They went ahead with it but I don&#8217;t know who actually uses it.  Fortunately, we don&#8217;t have a permanent location so something like that hopefully won&#8217;t show up.  I definitely have issue with it.</p>
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